The 6 Stages of Financial Independence With Joel and Matt From How to Money

Transcript:

On this episode of the personal finance podcast, the six stages of financial independence with Joel and Matt from how to money.

What's up everybody. And welcome to the personal finance podcast. I'm your host, Andrew, founder of master money. co and. Day on the personal finance podcast. We are going to be talking to Joel and Matt from the how to money podcast about the six stages of financial independence. If you guys have any questions, make sure you hit us up on Instagram, tick talk, Twitter at master money co and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcast, or whatever podcast player you love listening to this podcast on.

And if you want to help out the show, leave a five star rating and review on your favorite podcast player. Now, today I am really, really excited to talk to Joel and Matt from the how to money podcast. And they also have a fantastic newsletter called how to money as well. And what we are going to be going through today is there six stages of financial independence.

And I love talking about financial independence in this way, because it gives us ways to compartmentalize our journey and our spectrum as we go through financial independence. But in addition, It shows how flexible financial independence can be when you on your journey to building wealth. So we are going to be going through the six stages of financial independence with Joel and Matt, which I love the way that they framed this out.

In addition, we're going to be talking about some of their self proclaimed ways that they are frugal. We're going to talk about how to actually build up the skill of spending money. We're gonna be talking about emergency funds, how to build out cash buffers. And in addition. We're going to talk about how they invest their money as well.

So really, really excited for this episode. Joel and Matt are pros. They have been doing this for a very long time and are some of the best money minds that are out there. So without further ado, let's welcome Joel and Matt to the personal finance podcast. Joel, Matt, welcome to the personal finance podcast.

Thanks for having us, Andrew. Thank you, Andrew. I am so excited to have you guys here because I've been listening to your podcast for a very long time and I absolutely love your approach to money and how you teach other people about money as well. So one of my favorite things is kind of going back and looking at your money origin story.

So can each of you kind of tell me where you got started with money and how you actually started to teach money as well? Joel, you want to, you want to kick things off? Sure. Yeah. So, um, my interest in money started from like, not actually a great place. My parents were not terribly good with money growing up.

And so there were a lot of money arguments in the house. And I resolved early on that. I was like. I don't want money to be a source of contention in a future relationship. I'm going to be frugal as I'll get out. So that was kind of my initial like way of relating to money was just how frugal can I be?

And I didn't really see the positive sides of money, like the building wealth side of things. So I was stuck in that myopic phase for a while, but then I always wanted to work in radio, ended up working in radio and. Of all things, I ended up working for like one of the personal finance godfathers, Clark Howard, who is just this brilliant mind.

And I started to like, learn a whole lot of things about personal finance that I didn't know. I was like, I was just going to be cheap my whole life. And, uh, and so like working with Clark really helped expand my horizons. Like he's not cheap right now. Still kind of cheap, right? Uh, you don't necessarily lose that gene all the way, right?

It's kind of ingrained in me, but. That helped me see all the positive things that money can do to start to build wealth and to start to think about money in a more holistic way. I love that. Yeah. Okay. And, uh, is it my turn? Andrew, you may go ahead and dive into it. I think for this reason, Joel and I are good partners when it comes to the podcast and how we talk about money.

Cause I, I basically have the, maybe the complete opposite. Story, uh, as Joel, it's, it was always something that we talked about as a kid. I remember when I, I received an allowance as a kid and I remember getting 10 dimes. And I remember my dad portioning out like 10 percent to save 10%. Uh, we went to a Catholic church.

So he's just like, you got to give 10 percent to the church. Uh, and we were just very intentional about our money growing up. And so there was always a conversation. And I remember even as a kid. And certainly didn't know truly what he was talking about. But I remember him sitting me down and just truly explaining what it meant to be financially independent.

I remember him likening it to like a roller coaster. And it's like, you're climbing up this hill and you get to a certain point and it gets a lot easier. It's when your money is working harder for you than your money is. And, uh, so that was as a kid, I received that knowledge. Of course, as a kid, I was an idiot, uh, and none of it truly stuck.

And it wasn't honest, but it laid a good foundation. And it wasn't until my wife and I, we owned our own business. So we were entrepreneurial and we were driving to a photography gig. And we were talking at the time. Downton Abbey was huge back then. And we were having this discussion and Kate was like, how do they do that back?

Like, what did it mean to live off the land? Like live off of the estate. And these are concepts that we'd touched on before, but I explained to her. Essentially like the 4 percent rule. I didn't know that's what it was called because I wasn't really into personal finance at that point, but I was just like, it's when your money is.

Earning money and you're drawing on that and you have the ability to, to do what you want. And that sort of started us down this path of getting a little more serious with our money. We never went into debt. We spent less than, than what we made, but that's when we were like on standby as far as like ready to rock when it came to really getting after some of the financial goals that, uh, that we had for ourselves as a young.

And I love that you both had very different paths and it kind of shows how you can teach, you know, in very different aspects when it comes to the podcast and how you guys kind of approach that side of it. And how did you guys actually meet originally? And then what made you actually start the podcast?

So Matt and I, we lived in the same neighborhood. We actually went to the same local church too. And so we kind of got to know each other pretty quick. It was young adulthood before kids. Now we've got kids roughly the same age. We're best friends too. And, but yeah, so we just kind of. Got to know each other over the, over a course of a few years and quickly gravitate.

We realized we had a lot in common. Personal finance just being one of those things. And so I had started a blog on the side too, uh, trying to get my personal finance thoughts out there. And Matt was like, why don't we start a podcast? And I'm was in radio. I loved the media of long form audio. Yeah. You talked about it and you're like, ah, look man, I'm thinking about doing, starting my own show.

And yeah, y yeah, we would talk about it, it would come up, but it was amazing. That it was your idea to do it. And I'm like, all right, yeah, why haven't we done was your idea? I'm like, I remember when I came to you was just like, dude, we're finally going to do this because I thought I'd heard you talk about it and maybe I was just tired of hearing you talk about it.

I was like, let's just start a show. Like I'm tired of hearing you be like, oh, but I don't. So basically I was like, hey. Every time we get together, what do we do? He's like, uh, we drink craft beer. I'm like, yes, we definitely do that. Let's store that one away. Let's not forget that. But then what else do we talk about?

And at that, at that point in time, we were both really getting into real estate investing and just generally speaking, being smart with your money. Those were a lot of the common themes that we would come back to. So we're like, let's start the podcast that feels really approachable, where it feels like you're hanging out with your bud.

Enjoying a craft beer where you're talking about doing smarter things with your money, where it doesn't feel like you're in some personal finance lecture or that kind of thing. Because it's not that there weren't great people in the space, there were, but we wanted to translate this information for the next generation.

And it's true, like you hear something differently from a voice that you feel more, you have more in common with. And so we're like, all right, we're going to try to do kind of what some of these other folks have done, but for the millennial generation and Gen Z and kind of, yeah, the up and comers.

Slightly different flavor. You, uh, you, you're. Fan of craft beer as well. And just because there's somebody that makes craft beer, that doesn't mean that somebody else can't start a new brewery. It's like, Oh, this is going to be our take on it. It's yeah, it's the same style, but it's going to be, you know, it's going to taste different.

So that's, that's kind of what we're doing. Exactly. And you guys nail it because it really does feel like you're sitting down with some friends, having a craft beer and having a conversation about money. And that's what I love about it. It's so approachable. It's so down to earth. And that's why I've been listening to your podcast for so long.

So I think you guys are really nailing it on the head. And one of my favorite topics that you guys talk about is financial independence and you lay out these stages of financial independence that I think are really powerful. I love the idea of taking personal finance and putting it into stages. I think people love step by step ideas.

And so I think this is a really, really cool way to approach it. So I'd love to dive into the stages of financial dependence that you guys always talk about on your show. Cause I think there's so many cool ways that you lay this out. And the first one that you kind of go through is no fine. It's kind of where a lot of people start out in their financial journey.

So for someone just starting out, what is that first stage of financial independence or what is no fi kind of defined as Yeah. Okay. So first, before you're talking about like the financial independence exists on a spectrum essentially is exactly sort of how we talked about it. But I'll start by saying the reason that we wanted to have this conversation was because we realized I think there's a lot of folks when they hear financial independence exists.

They think of it like a light switch. It's either on or it's off until it's actually on until it's fully on until you're fully financially independent. Oh, you're not, you're not financially independent. And what we realized is that, Hey, that can be discouraging for folks, right? For folks who are either just getting started or for folks who've been plugging away at it for years and they're They calculate the number they do the calculators and they're like, Oh my gosh, I need like a million more dollars.

But then there might be some folks who are really close to the destination and they're still got their, they got the gas mashed and are going like full tilt, nose to the grindstone kind of approach to the work. And maybe what they realize is that, Oh, If you just backed off a little bit, that would increase your style of living, whatever, you know, like just the, the way that they're able to exist in a dramatic fashion.

And so what we realized is that we needed to like equate it from like a light switch that's on and on or off to like a dimmer, like a dimmer switch, because everybody knows if you ever use a dimmer switch, like that's when you can really like dial it in, set the mood, uh, but that was. First of all, why we wanted to talk about it in that way.

But then, yeah, of course, the first one was no fi. Basically, you don't have any options. You're not independent of anybody or anything. You probably have a negative net worth, right? You've got student loan debt, or maybe you've gotten into some credit card debt. And so you're like, I got to get over the first hump, which is kind of paying off some of that debt, getting out of the dregs of student loan debt, whatever.

And, and grant, you know, the safe plan is going to help people have a lower payment and all that kind of stuff. But it is really like, that is a demoralizing place, but it's a place where most people start out. And so you have to meet people where they are. And the fact that like, Oh, Hey, you're no fi, but Hey, it's not like, because you're no fi, you have no options until you get to financial independence.

There's all these steps along the way that are going to help you realize more of your ability to enjoy that independence along the way. But this is where everybody starts. And I remember being no fi when I first realized that I was no fi where I went up to a gas pump when I first got my first, you know, adult job.

And I went out and I was living paycheck to paycheck. And I went to go fill up my gas tank at a gas pump, and I didn't have enough money to actually fill up that gas tank. And I remember just feeling that feeling and being so incredibly frustrated. And I go, you know, I got to figure this out. I got to make a big decision to switch my lifestyle choices so that I can actually start to learn how to build wealth.

And if someone else is in that specific situation, maybe they're just starting out, they're trying to learn about money. They're trying to improve their financial situation. How can they go from this stage? And what are some things that they can do to get started so they can get to the next level? Yeah. I mean, they definitely need to start kind of tracking and seeing where everything's going, right?

That is a huge thing. Most people don't do. And if you don't know where the dollars are flowing, then it's hard to know how to redirect them. Right. And so you kind of have to document where, and you could sign up for, um, and attach all your accounts to a software like YNAB, which might help you need a budget, which will help you see, okay, this is where my money's going every month.

Cause lots of times it's like we pedal it away. And the reality is 13 ish dollars spent a day. That you weren't planning on spending, whether it's on a lunch out or a craft beer that you maybe should wait to purchase, um, adds up to something like five grand over the course of a year. And so 13 bucks a day, you're like, Oh man, that's really, that seems like it's not that much like to, but that's a hole that you need to plug.

But you have to realize that the holes there first and so starting to see where the money is going is going to help you then be able to reroute and make some different choices by doing that. What you're trying to do is create some margin, right? Because if you have some money on hand, that's when you're able to go from no fight to what in that episode, what we called credit card fi and it's when you're not dependent on the margin that your credit card affords you, right?

That's why people go to it is because they have not created that margin for themselves and economists have fine. We call them our money gears. But the first money gear is to set aside a basic emergency fund, which is 2, 467. At some point, we're gonna have to update that because I'm sure inflation has taken a toll on on that amount.

But research showed that by having that much on hand that folks were able to endure like 97 98 percent of any sort of financial setbacks that you would be faced with. And so the ability to become financially independent From your credit card before you are dependent on that credit card on that margin that was being provided to you by the bank.

Uh, and if you happen to hang on to that balance for, you know, more than 30 days, like you're going to pay interest on that. And so the idea is to obviously not do that and to make yourself, um, more dependent on your own savings on your own margin on that cushion. And, uh, that's kind of like when the next stage after no fives, what we called credit card fi, uh, essentially to give yourself some breathing room.

And like you guys said, I think the budget is so incredibly important to get started on that so that you can track that spending. And I use YNAB as well to get started. I've been using YNAB for over 10 years now. It's one of my favorite tools. And the cool thing about that is it just really allows you to actually have freedom with your money because you can allocate those dollars towards things that you actually value instead of taking those dollars and just spending them frivolously on things that you're not even thinking twice about.

And so when it comes to credit card fi, you know, I think I love that face and I love that you guys kind of talk about this part because I think the emergency fund is so incredibly important to have in place as well. So why is it so important to have that first initial cash buffer that you said it was?

What is it? 2400 bucks plus? Uh, why is it so important to have that initial cash buffer for those unexpected expenses? And what kind of things does that protect you from? Yeah, I mean, there's all sorts of like little things that come up, right? There's a car repair that you weren't expecting or maybe a medical expense that you weren't planning on, especially Matt and I, we've got kids.

And so you never know someone's going to like fall down, hurt themselves. You got to take them in to see the doctor. I mean that. Cash buffer not having it in the bank means you're going to have to resort back to those credit cards having the cash buffer means you've got the cash to pay for the thing that happened that you weren't expecting.

So emergency fund is not there to put gas in the tank. It's not even there to put tires on the car. Those are to Expenses you should be saving up for and planning for, but it is there for the thing that you can't actually plan for. And that just prevents it. Like I said, you from putting it on high interest credit card debt, especially with inflation and interest rates rising.

It's like the credit card interest rates have ballooned so much. It's even scarier to have credit card debt right now. Yeah. I will say though, I think it's perfectly reasonable for somebody who's just getting started to use their emergency fund more often, right? Because the goal would be over time to plan for every single one of those expenses.

You know, when you're 18 years old, you've never replaced the tires on your car, most likely. And so that's something that takes someone like us talking about maybe on a podcast, and they're like, Oh yeah, shoot, like how much do tires cost? And is that 80 bucks for all four? Or is it more like six hundo? And is that something I'm going to need to start putting money towards?

And so that's one of those things where over time you refine not only your budget, but you get to refine your spending and you're more aware of what it is that you're spending on, which is why. Tracking your expenses is so key. I personally don't use YNAB. I'm old school. I've got an Excel sheet, but that I've got, uh, that has a stone tablet.

But it's the file names is budget right now. Obviously this year is 23, but I've got all the way back to budget 07. And so that's when I started keeping up with it. And so it's just, it's also just cool to be able to go back and like, I can literally tell you how much I spent on going out to eat in September.

Of 2007, if I wanted to, I'm sure it would be eye opening compared to how much my wife and I spend out on date nights now. But I wanted to point that out because I think early on folks were like, well, how the heck am I supposed to know that I need to set aside funds? I need to have sinking funds set up.

I need to have savings buckets for some of these specific expenses in life. But it is something that over time it crystallizes, you drill down, you get more granular with it. The, I think honestly, the older you get and the more you follow your money. That's one of the things we talk about too, is it does take time.

This is a process. This, you know, quest of financial independence is for most people going to take multiple decades. And so don't get discouraged when you have a setback, like you're still going in. If you're going in the right direction and you're aiming for these goals and you're trying to save, save more and more and start investing and pay off that high interest debt.

Like this is going to be a process. And I think sometimes you might listen to a personal finance podcast or something or the personal finance podcast. And you might say, okay, I just want to. Overnight get there. It doesn't happen overnight, right? And you might find the motivation and you might like get started strong, which is great, but just know it's not going to be some sort of instantaneous thing.

It's going to take a minute. So if somebody is credit card fi, when should they start considering investing or thinking about investing? Ooh, well, specifically if they have a match, right? And so I, you know, we think it's incredibly important to make sure you've got that margin set aside that way because otherwise you're constantly falling back into debt.

Again, if you are dependent on your credit cards and you're paying basically the highest Interest rates that are out there. You might need to pull money. You've invested out at an inopportune time. Like you've done, Matt, like early on, right? You wanted to do the right thing. Someone's like, you should start investing, but you didn't have enough cash reserves to actually for it to make sense for you to go that.

I did not have the 2, 467 set aside. That is correct. My only saving grace was that it was in a Roth IRA. So I could withdraw this contributions to tax and penalty free. But I have no idea like what the market was doing at that point, and I was having to dip into that. But specifically, if someone has a work sponsored for when K and they've got a match, the ability to earn 100 percent on their money up to whatever percentage of their income that their employer is willing to match.

I mean, that is something that you want to start looking to pretty shortly after you've got that initial margin set aside. Once you are credit card fi. Exactly. And for those who listening, who don't know what the employer match is, it's basically a way for you to get, you know, a hundred percent rate of return on your money.

It is literally free money. And I know Joel, Matt, and I love free money. So we always wanted to take advantage of that when you get that employer match available to you. So I think that is one of the best things to take advantage of. Obviously you got to get that buffer first and have that in place. But once you have that in place, I think, you know, getting that employer match, getting that 100 percent return on your money, and then kind of considering it from there is going to be a really, really great thing that you can do.

Now, the next one is one that I love. It's called layoff. I and with layoff, I can you kind of explain what that is? Yeah, I mean, so basically like most of us, if we are most Americans, I'll say if you're to get laid off, you're freaking out, right? And you're you're just immediately. Incredibly nervous about what happens next.

You need another paycheck, right? And, and once you reach the point of layoff, I that's like having, uh, not just 2, 467 set aside for emergencies. That's having like three to six months worth of expenses on hand so that you can weather a longer storm. And I've known many people who lose a job and they've got to take the next thing that comes along, which might not be ideal, which might derail their career in some ways, because they don't have enough savings to not have income coming in.

And so layoff, I is a really good thing. It can help alleviate a lot of that pressure. Like, okay, if something does happen, if my industry, you know, goes through a downturn, if my employer says we've got to lay off 20 percent of the workforce, like the numbers aren't shaking out as well as we had hoped this year, and you're on the chopping block, you're not thrilled about it, right?

You're not like, woohoo. Yeah, this is great. But you are like, Hey. I can weather the storm because I've got enough in savings and I don't have to take the next thing that comes along. I can wait, keep applying for jobs. I'm working hard, but to find the next thing, but I don't have to take the first thing that comes along.

Exactly. And I think that's so powerful to kind of help reduce your stress and anxiety around money specifically when it comes to your work in your job and how you're actually operating around that kind of stuff. For people saving for an emergency fund, the full funded emergency fund like that, is there any recommendations that you have?

Because it's a very difficult thing for people to do, especially very, very early on. Do you guys have any recommendations of how much they should save? And then in addition, how they can actually achieve that goal? Oh yeah. So I mean the, we're not the only ones to say this, right? Like it's not like this is something we've trademarked or coined, but typically having that three to six months set aside is going to be clutch.

And where you fall on that spectrum, I think can come down to Your risk tolerance. And so in a number of factors, to be honest, not just your personal risk tolerance, but that of your partner, your significant other, uh, how many kids do you have? How many, like, how stable is your industry? How stable is your job?

Do you have tenure at the university where you're a professor? Okay. Maybe you don't necessarily need to have like six plus months set aside. Uh, being entrepreneurs, like personally, my wife and I, we've got nine plus months typically set aside is where we feel the most comfortable. And that also has to do with Irregular payments when, when it comes to when it is that we get paid.

So it's the ability to live off of that for months at a time without sweating it. But then again, yeah, whether you get laid off or just have a big unexpected life expense, the ability to weather these large storms, it's not just a layoff, right? Like it could even be somebody getting sick. Somebody's in the hospital for a few weeks.

These are things that you don't count on happening. But I think when it does happen to people, they weren't expecting it to happen either. And so it's, it's just one of the things where it's like self insuring to a certain extent, right? It's, it's having the money on hand. It's, you're not likely going to need it, but depending on your situation, you might be tapping it sooner than you think.

For sure. And I think it's really situational. Like you said, I think there's a lot of different scenarios where you can figure out how much you need to save. I love that you have nine months since you're self employed. I think that's one thing that, that I like to do too, is I just like to have that longer runway, just depending on whatever can happen, just having that available.

But like you said, if you're a tenured professor or something along those lines, then maybe you can get away with having a smaller emergency fund. And I think six months is kind of right along the perfect middle ground there. Because I think for a lot of people, you know, if you get fired from your job or something happens with a layoff, then you go have to go apply for jobs.

That's maybe one month or two months. Then you have to go into interviews. That's three to four months. And so that six months really gives you that perfect little runway there. If you have a job that maybe is not as secure as some others to figure out how to find that new job. So. The next big piece, I think, is people are always worried about how long it takes to save up that emergency fund and how long it will actually take.

How long did it take you guys to save up your first emergency fund and how long, how did you actually build that out? Yeah, it's like tough to skin that cat early on. And we were just answering a lister question recently from someone who's got three kids under the age of five and they've got all these money goals and they've got a great income.

But it's tough. How much am I saving? How much am I investing? And how much am I like paying off debt? Right? And so you're kind of the way you reach financial independence is through a doing all three at the same time. And so the 2467 number in savings is like the first priority, then paying off some of that high or then getting the match right at work.

If you have one under 401k, and then it's paying off that high interest rate credit card debt. And then you're talking about working on saving more money. And so you're kind of like, Doing a little bit of this and then a little bit of this and then a little bit of this and then more of this other thing.

And so it's kind of like turning up dials, and so it takes a while, I think, especially in, I mean, I remember my first job was part time in radio and then my first full time job. Finally, it didn't pay a whole lot, and so it took some time and it took a heck of a lot of frugality. To be able to like make that happen sooner, but yeah, I think you need to think about all of those things together.

We're trying to invest for those future financial independence years, but we're also trying to save so we have a little more financial independence in our lives in the near term as well. Yeah. Having that liquidity is really important. And I mean, so you're asking as far as like how long it took and I'm like, gosh, like I'm trying to think back and.

Getting to be a little bit older, but like I'm guessing I think it took us a number of months and that's where it varies from person to person, right? Like that's why it's personal finance is because you might have a young professional couple and it turns out they don't really have all that much.

Student loan debt remaining. And so their payments are pretty small. And so once their eyes are opened, like things click and they're able to boom all like in three months, they're able to have six to nine months worth of living expenses. And they're moving on to higher levels of investing. But for somebody else out there, it's a year two plus, I mean, honestly, long time.

Absolutely. It just depends on how tight things are, where they are in their career, the different debt obligations they might have. Uh, and so it just varies from person to person. Yeah. I know it's important to cover that, but I think because there might be a lot of folks and if we're only talking to high wage earners, well, talking about taking more than a year doesn't, it's like, wait, what are y'all talking about last?

You shouldn't take that long, but to somebody who might be struggling a little bit more, they're like, no, no, no, they need to take that long term mindset. Like this is a marathon for them just to get to that point of financial stability. Exactly. It is a process and it's very different for each situation.

And I love that you guys brought that up because I think it's really, really important for people to understand. The next one is PeaceOutFi. And I love this one too. But can you explain the concept around PeaceOutFi? Well, I feel like in my mind, PeaceOutFi and LayOffFi are, they're very closely related, right?

Because they both have to do, they're both in relation to work. And with that being one side of the equation, right? Like that's where we are receiving the majority of our income for most folks. Uh, and so on one hand, LayOffFi You have the independence, you have the ability to weather a storm that happens to you, right?

Like you're, you're playing more of a passive role. Whereas peace out, fi man, you are in the driver's seat, right? So this is when you're in a job and you're like, Oh, I do not feel fulfilled. Oh man, what a, this is getting to be an unhealthy, borderline toxic work environment. This is something I do not like subjecting myself to.

day in day out. Like I feel the stress and the toll that it's taking all my life. That's when you can start to think, all right, like, hopefully you could line some things up so you can transition seamlessly, right? The ability to perhaps engineer your own layoff. Like then when you're, when you're talking about severance that way, oh man, you're actually in a great position now because not only were you able to set yourself up for the next job, but you are, you got this little boost that's pushing you from behind.

But let's say you weren't able to do that. Well, it's having Plenty more than that three to six months in order to buy you some time, uh, to be able to figure out what's going to be next in your life in particular when it comes to your career. Yeah. Instead of being like worried that you're going to get laid off, you might even be raising your hand.

Hey, no, it's because I'm ready to move on to this next another career. Or it could be the other thing too. If you've got like something like nine to 12 months of savings on hand, someone in your family gets sick, God forbid. And you say, I want to be by their side through this process and work is just going to not allow me to do that.

So. I'm going to have to quit or I'm going to have to reduce to one or two days a week. My income is going to be drastically cut. It gives you all sorts of options. And so peace out is just this next level where you really get to kind of help engineer your future instead of just being protected against things happening to you.

You get to kind of proactively decide where you're going. You're in the driver's seat. You're calling the shots and man, what a place of. Like power, you know, for you to have that much on hand, like that should give people a lot of boldness, right? When it comes to not only what it is that they're doing day in and day out, but maybe even pushing back regarding some of the roles that you have.

Like, maybe you love your company, but you're, you're like, Oh, I don't want to do this. Particular project anymore. I, I'm not a fan of, I'm trying to be, uh, do this in a positive light, right? Yeah. Diplomatic kind of way. It's just like, uh, I'm, I'm actually, I would like to report to this boss instead. There are lots of things, a lot of different options that are on the table when you have that piece of five, because you're not necessarily worried about whether or not you get canned.

This is a great example of how money is a tool to allow you to have that power. And it's so powerful to be in this position. And one big thing that I love that you guys talk about in this section is engineering your layoff. And can you kind of explain what engineering your layoff is? Cause I first learned about this when I read Sam from financial Samurai, he kind of talked about this early on in his blog, and I remember reading about this, I was like, that is such a cool concept, but we've actually never talked about on this podcast.

So can you kind of explain what that is? Yeah, Sam's that's the first place I kind of heard about it too. I was like, Sam, this is a killer idea. And most people aren't in the financial position to be able to, or to want to engineer a layoff. They're like, I need the paycheck. And if I don't keep working and I don't have the paycheck, then I don't have the money.

to pay the bills, pay the rent, all that kind of stuff, put food on the table. But if you have this additional level of financial security, you can start to, like we said, proactively choose your future. And part of that is the potential to engineer your own layoff. And so I took Sam's advice and Sam was in a particularly fortunate position of working for a well to do like company in.

The San Francisco Bay Area, and so I don't think his how it went down for him is normal or applicable for most people. I think the way I was able to do, I was able to kind of use his advice, though, and funnel it into my own circumstances, and I worked at a radio station when they were going through job cuts, and it was his perfect time for me to say.

Hey, listen, I volunteer as tribute. I know you're offering out severance packages. So this is actually a perfect time for me to go. Matt and I, we'd already started doing the podcast on the side. Things were going decently well. And so I was able to hopefully save somebody else's hide by taking that punch.

But I was also working on the next thing and building it up. And so it gave this perfect runway, getting that additional severance. In addition to the savings I had on hand where I was like, Oh, I've. Plenty of time to see whether this podcasting thing is going to work out or not. And so getting that engineering, that layoff, offering myself up, made it so that like, man, I had even more padding as I was departing.

And I love that, that you have that realistic actual example that you utilized as well. Because when I first originally read Sam's, I remember thinking, well, he's in like this huge bank. I think he's like a hedge fund or something along those lines. You know, they have all this money that they actually.

Put aside for these layoffs and things like that. And it was just a very different situation, but I think the way that you did it is a really, really cool thing. And this is the power of having additional income streams as well. Like you guys did with the podcast is that you can make some of these decisions, or if you have the cash on hand, you can also do that.

And you have the power if you save up enough money and have this cash and liquidity on hand. So I think that's a really, really cool thing that you have set up there. So the next one is sabbatical fine. I think this is a really cool one. I've, I've heard of a bunch of different, really cool examples that people have utilized this, but what is sabbatical fi?

So all of these exist on the spectrum, right? And so we're basically taking the previous stage and we're building off of that. And I think we may have likened sabbatical fi to like peace out fi, but just on steroids, right? It's the ability to like with Peace out, Phi. I feel like you kind of have more of a plan, right?

Or like you've got something in mind. You've got to be thinking about the next thing, right? Yeah. And we're just talking about engineering the layoff. And I love that Joel was able to scale Sam financial Samurais model. You know, it doesn't have to be this thing where you get like this 250, 000 package.

Mine was not nearly that big. But, um, beyond that, Sabbatical fight. It's kind of like, I don't know. I don't want to call like a midlife crisis, but I think it affords you the ability to say, I'm not totally sure what's next in my life. And a lot of times when you're in the day to day, it can be tough to discover that, right?

A lot of us don't spend nearly enough time by ourselves reflecting with. Quiet solitude and this is coming from somebody who loves that, but I don't, I don't allow myself that freedom because I'm always, I want to hear the latest episode. I want to hear the news. I want it. There's so many books I want to listen to and it's oftentimes listening because I'm either riding my bike to work or I'm going for a run or I'm working out.

It's a blessing and a curse. As you know, Andrew, the podcasting. But you know, to really change what your life and what your career looks like is what sabbatical fi is all about. It's not in a lot of employers are like, Oh yeah, we offer a sabbatical benefits. And it's like two weeks off or something like that.

And it's just a vacation, dude. I want the Australian version. Like, come on, talking about months at a time, even like even a year or so. And where you're truly giving yourself the time. To reflect, figure out what it is that you value the most and trying to determine what changes you need to make in your life.

That way you don't end up at the end of your life looking back saying, man, I can't believe I just continued in that standard nine to five or even a more entrepreneurial role. Oh, I can't believe I kept just doing the thing that made me a ton of money, but maybe it wasn't the most fulfilling. Maybe I didn't see the value in it, whatever it is that an individual might be faced with.

It's about getting to the root of that and figuring out what's going to provide you with the most. life satisfaction, the we're at the end of your life. You're not looking back with regrets, but that you're thinking, man, what I did mattered. That's what sabbatical fly allows you to do. It's, it's what it affords you.

Exactly. And I think that's so incredibly powerful to have available to you because even people who are in a job, maybe they absolutely hate and they have no idea what they want to do next and know where to turn. I think this is a really powerful thing a for your stress and anxiety to reduce that your mental health, all those different things.

And you have this available to you as a tool is, as long as you have this build up over that time frame. So have you seen any really cool examples of people who have used sabbatical fi, maybe traveling the world or anything else along those lines? Yeah, our friend Jillian Johns rude. I think she just started a new podcast all about sabbaticals, right?

And she, this is like her thing, her territory. She loves the idea of like working some and then taking nine months and traveling around with her family in a camper. And so they live a really. Inexpensive lifestyle, and they've been great savers and investors. And so this gives them a lot of flexibility over their time and over, uh, you know, where they live in the country even.

Right. And so our friend, Chad Carson, who is an awesome real estate investor, just came out with a killer new book that if anybody's interested in real estate investing, they should pick up. I mean, he takes a year. He's done this multiple times. He takes his family. They move overseas for a year and a whole new locale.

And normally they're in Clemson, South Carolina, but there'll be in Spain or there'll be in South America for a whole year. And most people would say like, how is that possible? And it's amazing when you keep your costs in check and you're just a diligent saver and investor. And you're like, Eight or nine years down the road, you're like, how did I save up all this money just by doing the right thing over and over and over?

And that's where people like Jillian and Chad have found themselves. And in Chad's case with the real estate portfolio, it's like there's rent coming in every month to support all of his ongoing costs. And so it's not even this investment portfolio he's having to draw down and that's supporting his lifestyle.

That's allowing him to take sabbaticals, you know, he, because he works for himself, he's still working a little bit here and there, but he's enjoying his time there. And so, yeah, I think part. Work flexibility has allowed a lot more people to kind of participate in the work from anywhere sort of lifestyle, which is great.

But having more cash on hand means, well, you might not need to be tethered to a keyboard 40 or 50 hours a week. Even while you're living in this exotic destination, you might actually get to go out there and enjoy it too. And I love those two examples. These are two really, really cool examples. And Chad's actually coming on in a week or two, um, to talk about it too.

So I'll definitely have to ask him about that. Cause I think that's a really, really cool option, especially with real estate investing, you have that cashflow and all that other stuff that kind of gives you that security as well. So I think that is really, really cool and powerful. So the last stage, obviously on the spectrum is Fulfi and Fulfi.

Is one thing that most people want to achieve. We're all trying to get there at some point in time within our lives so that we can have, you know, retirement. Maybe we want to work and be work flexible, but at the same time, you have that ability to become fully financially independent. Can you talk about why the goal is not always to just sit on a beach and maybe sift craft beer under an umbrella?

For example, what is full five exactly? You guys, I was going to say, I don't know. Sipping craft beer under an umbrella sounds pretty nice, at least part time, right? At least part time. Well, what you're getting at here, like the question behind your question here is what do we think about work? And that's one of the views I think that we hold is like we don't vilify work.

I think oftentimes like that's the traditional view of retirement of being fully financially independent. And honestly, even a lot of a lot of the fire advocates, it's like they're going hard because they want to be able to quit completely. And then once they quit, they realize. Okay. What am I actually going to spend all of my time doing now?

They're running away from something as opposed to running to a better vision of their lives. Yeah. And the ability to continue to do something and provide good. Certainly if you want to volunteer, if you want to change careers, change industries and take like a massive pay cut and all of a sudden you're working for a nonprofit when before you're working and earning a pretty high wage as an executive or something like that, that's something that honestly you don't even need to get to full fi before you do that.

But even still, I think what's core and important for us to talk about is the importance of work. And it's something that we hold personally in pretty high regard, right? The ability to do an act, create a good or do an act of service that somebody else is willing to exchange their hard earned money for something like means of currency, right?

Like they're going to give you money to do the thing that you do, like you are able to provide them with some sort of value. And they're willing to pay for that. How cool is that? Like you are making their life better. You are either that or you're just making the world a better place. And that's a noble thing to do.

And so when folks are just purely running away from work, it's something that we're not huge fans of. We're not necessarily advocating for that. But if you are for, I mean, simultaneously, there are folks who have not taken more of the nontraditional view of work where they have gone hard. They haven't taken any breaks.

They are 59 and a half or they're 65. And they are looking to say, I'm done, right? I want to be able to not work anymore. And that's where both my parents as well as my in laws, you know, they're fully retired. They're right now, as we're recording this, they're driving to Atlanta because they're going to spend the weekend with us.

Uh, and They didn't have to leave work early, right? Like they just left when they wanted to leave before that. They were in the Caymans, uh, the Cayman Islands relaxing. And I'm like, I love it. I'm sheltering money from the authorities like you do. That's what you do in the Caymans, right? Yeah, the ability to not have a traditional job where you're reliant on that income.

Like if you want to work here and there is like a little bit of icing on the cake, a little cherry on top. That's fine, but you're certainly not reliant on that job to provide that income. It's a great ultimate goal. And it's one that takes a long time to achieve, right? A lot of doing the right thing, like I said, over a long period of time.

And you do kind of look up at some point and you're, you're like, wait, these compounding returns that I heard people talk about for years on end, I'm starting to actually see them. And I'm starting to see my account balance grow, not by thousands, not by hundreds, but by tens of thousands of dollars in a given year, maybe.

And that's like a really crazy, interesting thing to watch because, you know, intellectually, How compounding returns work. Maybe you've been explained how they work and you're like, that sounds really cool. But then when you start to see it in fruition, you're like, that's so rad. And so, uh, but I think we also, what we preach to a lot on the show is, is balance.

And I don't think you necessarily want to work. That's why the spectrum thing matters so much to us is you don't necessarily want to work 70 hours a week so you can achieve financial independence in eight years. There are some people who are willing to do that, right? Nose to the grindstone for some of those really important years, right?

Whereas this morning I had coffee with a friend, I went. For a nice five and a half mile hike. And now I'm having this lovely chat with you. And so I want my life in the here and now to have balance. And then I also want it to have balance in the future. And so it's ideal. It's smart to optimize for the thing that you want, not just off in the future, not just that future financial independence, which is something we're striving for.

But do it within moderation so that, yeah, maybe you could do it in eight, but it would mess your life up now. And so you say, all right, listen, it looks like it's going to take me 14 or 15 years and it's okay because then I'm actually going to like my life for the next 14 or 15 years as opposed to feeling like I'm just like working my butt off in order to, that's why it doesn't have to be all or nothing.

And that's one of the things we talk about too, is like exploited along the way. Don't just achieve these levels of financial independence and. Let it be numbers on, on a screen. You can exploit it and say, I am taking six weeks off. Like I'm going to go, I'm going to go to Spain. This is one of my goals and hike the Camino Santiago, right?

I'm going to do that for a full month, like exploited along the way. Because if you don't, it's just numbers on a screen and you're detached from the reality that of the financial buffer that you've built up. And I love that it's just attaching those things to things that fulfill you essentially is what it comes down to, whether you know, you have that work life balance where you can create some sort of business and or have a work situation where you can have that work life balance, but you also have the freedom to leave whenever you want and you have that financial independence available to you and you can do the things that you want in life.

And that's the coolest thing that money could do. It allows you that freedom and the freedom of choice to be able to do what you want with your time and your energy and everything else. And I think that's the most powerful thing that we can do as we start to build wealth. Okay. Now I kind of want to shift gears because I love that you guys have that spectrum there and I appreciate you guys creating that because I think that is one really cool way to kind of think about financial independence and I love how you think about it going across a spectrum now shifting gears here you guys are both self proclaimed frugal and I love that I used to be really really frugal as well especially in my 20s I was really really frugal less so now especially since I've had kids as well I've loosened up the belt a little bit there but what are some of the most frugal things that you guys do on on a regular basis?

Yeah. Once you have kids, you kind of, to a certain extent, don't have a choice. You're just like, Oh my gosh, it feels like you're just hemorrhaging money. And it all starts with that. At least for us exactly being self employed and having four kids, it all starts by roughly paying 10, 000 a pop for, uh, for each kid.

That's some just like, okay, exactly. This is going to be a different, different map buys them on Craigslist. That's why they're so expensive. Uh, uh, I'll, I'll kick things off. I still am. frugal, borderline cheap at times, Andrew, but I would say one thing that I think might surprise a lot of folks. I still cut my hair, my own hair.

Like I've cut my own hair ever since I was in middle school, right? Because my parents were frugal and so I'm at home and mom used to cut my hair because they were frugal too. But one time she messed up, I was like, Mom, never again. Will you come cut my hair? It's like cut my own hair. It took me like an hour as a, you know, 12 year old or something like that.

But I literally have cut it. I have not gone to a barbershop. I've not had somebody else cut my hair. Um, I'm 40 years old now. So how do you do that? Do you have like a 360 mirror around you? You know, go to the beauty salon and get like one of those wide mirrors and get that some clippers. I will say over, it's helpful to trust the guards.

And so once you know your number, like if I got a charged hair clipper thing, whatever, I don't even know what it like wall or, you know, it's like 30 bucks off of Amazon. But uh, get that thing charged up, put the four on there and the three and then the two all the way down to the ear and then hit it with the ear guards.

It's done. It's amazing how knock it out in like 20, 25 minutes, something like a haircut adds up, right? It's all, that's the thing. It's the, you got to pay attention to the big things and the little things. And some people want to be like, cool, I'm not willing to give up two nice cars or whatever. You have to be willing to give up some things in order to pursue and have more of this optionality.

So I don't know what, what's yours, Joel? What do I do that's frugal? I mean, I ride my bike all over the place, right? So I rode my bike. I've ridden my bike already like seven miles today. I just use it as a way to get from point A to point B. That's our transportation. Yeah. So that's one thing I would say.

And then, oh, I'm trying to think if there's something else where I have definitely, um, I used to just be like ridiculously frugal and I'm trying to, to not be as frugal as I've been. The other thing I refuse to pay for parking. So I went to a concert the other night with a friend and we parked like 1. 2 miles away from the venue.

We had this lovely walk and discussion, but we parked for free as instead we would have paid 20 bucks. And part of it's actually convenience because if that parking deck fills up and everyone's leaving at the same time, it's going to take you an extra like 45 minutes to get home. I'd rather spend that time like going on a walk or something.

So, so refusing to pay for parking, as much and as often as possible is. Probably something else I do that's frugal that most people would be unwilling to do. They're like, ah, it's 15 bucks or it's 22 bucks. Who cares? Like this is just part of the the joy of getting the O. C. This concert. I'm like, no, I paid for the tickets, but I'm gonna park for free.

Yeah, related to that. So typically everyone's biggest line item and their monthly budget is housing. But then after that, typically it's transportation. And so, I mean, we're a one car family. We have been for over 15 years now, and we thought it was gonna be harder after we moved out. into the burbs. So we used to be in town.

It's a lot easier to be a one car family. Um, and we're like, Oh my gosh, we're moving out to the burbs. Let's see how long we last. Hey, fingers crossed, man. We keep that up. It takes a little more scheduling. Certainly take a lift here and there. Uh, like I just got the van serviced and it took all day. So dropped it off, but I had to catch a lift.

No big deal because 20 bucks is a heck of a lot more than what's the average car payment these days for a 40, 000 vehicle. It's like Yeah, you can afford a whole lot of lift rides if you're not forking over an additional car payment every month, which is what most Americans are doing. So that's what I love about you guys is that you are kind of frugal with intention and there's intention behind why you're doing what you're doing, which I think is really, really cool.

So. One thing that I had to learn when I was really, really frugal in my twenties was kind of how to build out a skill of spending money and figuring out what are the things that I actually value and spending money on. And you guys have a great concept around this called the craft beer equivalent. So can you kind of explain what that is and how you can actually build up that skill of spending money on things that you value?

Yeah. Money that you're saving or investing is, is really supposed to be deferred consumption. You're thinking about it as in like, okay, I'm setting this aside so that it can grow, so that I have more money to spend later or to give away, right? Whatever, whatever that might be. And if you're thinking about it as just numbers on, on a screen to, to get us like Warren Buffett.

A great example of a guy who lives the same way, which is totally fine. Like you don't necessarily need to blow it out, but it's also like at some point you could probably change some things too. And what is it that you like and what is it that you care about and what is it that you eventually do want these dollars to go towards?

And so that, yeah, the craft beer equivalent thing is something that's a big part of our show. Matt and I love craft beer and we spend money on Craft beer, like way more than most people would think is normal. Sometimes it's like a 25 bottle of beer and people like what? That's crazy. That's crazy. Right.

And, um, a beer, one beer. Yes, exactly. Um, or a 25 six pack or something like that, or four pack for something that's really delicious. And that just is something that. And we appreciate it quite a bit. It's our goal to tell, okay, pick two or three things in your life that are kind of your craft beer equivalent.

For me, like there's like local folk art is something that's really important to me. My wife and I, we buy at least one piece every year. We literally just bought a piece a couple of weeks ago that we weren't planning on buying. And someone was like, Hey, I'm selling this. And we're like, that's awesome.

Okay, we'll buy it. And we set aside money for a few things that we think are important. Travel is often one for people, but don't necessarily do and spend money in the ways that everyone else is spending money. If you can say, actually, this is important to me, this is important, and this is important to me, and then you're funneling money in that direction, and then you spend less in all the other things, it makes you actually excited to pair back on some of those other things.

Like, you know what, I'm gonna get the cheapest cell phone service possible because it means that my budget on the stuff I really care about can grow. That's a great place to be. And most people are like, they think of it as drudgery, saving money. It's like, no, no, no, saving money on all this other stuff means you can have more to funnel towards.

Whether it's in the here and now or whether it's in the eventual, the things that really, really matter to you. But you got to kind of do a little bit of that digging to figure out what it is that matters to you, what moves the needle. And it might not be the same thing that moves the needle for your neighbor or your friend.

So that's really kind of a personal endeavor that you have to embark on. And it reminds me of a famous quote of, you know, you can afford anything, you just can't afford everything. And that's kind of how you have to think about some of this stuff is figuring out what you value, putting those dollars towards the things that you value and allocating everything else towards your wealth building, especially if you're on that journey, or you're still building up on the fi spectrum as well.

So I think that's really, really cool. Um, and a really great way to think about spending money. Now you guys both invest in a very similar way that I do from what I've heard on your show. Can you kind of talk about if we were looking at a pie chart of your investments, how do you actually invest your dollars of like the actual Allocation of our, uh, invested dollars exactly.

Or is it, you know, 50 percent stocks, 50 percent real estate? Or how do you, I would say it's all in on Bitcoin. So that's what he advises everyone else. Do I'm like 150 percent doge. I'm leveraged. Uh, exactly. There's, there's people actually coming after me right now. Uh, I would say, goodness. About 2 3rds. So the money that I've got invested in the market in the stock market, it's fully invested in the S and P 500.

Like, so my market money literally is 100 percent the S and P 500 vanguards. E. T. F. V. V. O. O. Uh, and then aside from that So of my overall net worth, I would say that that's probably about two thirds of my wealth. And I would say the other one third is real estate. So single family investment properties that Joel and I that we both started talking about.

And that's again, sort of the beginning of our friendship was. Kind of be like, Oh, yeah, I think you think about doing that. I'm thinking about doing that. And that was a lot of what we talked about there early on. Certainly doing less of that now as far as actively looking for additional properties. Uh, we're kind of cruising right now, given where interest rates are, given where prices and how tight the market is.

And we're taking that Chad Carson mentality. You want to overdo it either? Yeah. Yeah. And for me, I like to personally manage those and I kind of like where things are right now. And that might change as different opportunities become available. But yeah, right now. One third real estate, two thirds stocks.

Yeah. Mine's probably half and half real estate and stocks and yeah, similar, just low cost index funds. And then these properties that I accumulated every couple of years, just saving up more for the down payment. Sometimes it was moving into the next property. Other times it was identifying another property that made sense.

They were all super local that I could manage locally. And, and that's, I think that's a really good recipe for people to kind of get started on real estate investing. If they're interested, it's not for everyone. It's more, it's far less passive, especially in the beginning. It can eventually become. more passive and has, has for me, but it's one of those things where, yeah, it's probably half real estate, half stock exposure, mostly us stock market.

I love that. And that's kind of the same way I am where it's about 50 percent real estate and 50 percent index funds, ETFs, those types of things. So I think that's absolutely fantastic. So before we wrap this episode up, I want to ask you my favorite question that we love to ask all of our guests, which is what does wealth mean to you?

Ooh, what does wealth mean? You, I mean, I don't think I'm the first one to say this, but having. Having wealth means that you have options, right? But specifically, you have the option to do what it is you want, when you want to do it, and with who you want to do it with. Uh, and so the ability to just control your fate to a certain extent, again, kind of hearken back to what we just talked about when you're talking about the, you know, how fi exists on the spectrum.

When you are no fi, you don't have The option with any of those things, like you are told basically what it is that you're going to do. You're told when you're going to do those things, and you're also told who you have to work with and who you're going to do that with. And if you are looking for more autonomy in your life, like as you increase the amount of wealth that you have, uh, certainly there's going to be times when, okay, this isn't ideal, but that's just, that's life, right?

Like you can't eliminate all hassle from life, but you can. curtail it, right? Like there's a decent amount of it that you do have control over. And to me, yeah, in particular, though, yeah, all of those things, but in particular, the win, because it's not that you don't want to necessarily do things, but I don't know, like when you get around to doing those things and the control of your time seems to be like the most important thing that I think I'm starting to realize, especially like you do, you're like, as you have kids, you start to realize.

Man, I've got this a very limited window. Like I know that on this year, my wife and I can now we're gonna be empty nesters, which is mind blowing to think about right now. Like literally our youngest dudes, Joel's son and my son, we're celebrating their fourth birthday tonight. Like we're, the families are getting together again.

We're best friends. Our families are best friends. Our parents are starting to become best friends. That's like a new thing, which is kind of weird. Three generations. Yeah. But, uh, but yeah, like, okay, they're four. So do the math there. 14 years from now, they're not going to be at home. And when you start thinking about things through that lens and with that perspective, when you've done the hard work to get you to where you are now, it allows you to start prioritizing the things you want to focus on, at least for the next period of time.

Like for instance, the next 14 years. It makes me think, and something that. Probably should be said more, especially in the personal finance community is that there are different kinds of wealth. And we talk a lot about the money version of it, right? And that's what Matt and I want people to achieve is, is more and more financial independence, more and more wealth from like a dollars and cents standpoint.

But There are so many other, there are other varieties of wealth that you can experience in your life, like relational wealth, like health wealth. And we have so prioritized financial wealth that we've deprioritized these other things. And the reality is that if you live a more frugal existence and you funnel money into, yes, proactively into the things that matter, but you dial back on some of those other things, it will allow you to be able to enjoy some of those other forms of wealth, I think more readily and without.

Inhibition. And so for me, it is being able to enjoy and have, you know, deep, meaningful friendships to spend more time outside in the outdoors, to spend more time doing things that like, I don't know, grow my family health, my personal health, my, like all that kind of stuff. So I guess when I think about wealth, I'm thinking of like, man, yeah, it's part of its money, but it's all these other things too.

And the more that your money is kind of dialed in, the more you get to enjoy those other forms of wealth. And the more you're like stressed and worried about. Money, um, the more you don't have that taken care of, it's going to impact all those other things because it's like this looming cloud hanging over your head.

It's creating a lot of this ongoing stress, right? Um, for a whole lot of people where it makes it so much harder to enjoy your family because you're like, am I going to be able to pay the bills this week? Maybe you're shorter with your kids or you don't have that long leisurely date night with your spouse.

You haven't prioritized it because you don't feel like you have the time or the space or the money to actually do it. And so, yeah, that financial wealth can accelerate these other forms of wealth that I think are, are just as important, if not more. I could not agree more. And those are two of my favorite answers that we've ever had to that question.

So that was, that was absolutely amazing. Joel, Matt, thank you so much for coming on. This has been amazing. Where can people find out more about you, your podcast, newsletter, everything else? Yeah, you can find everything up at howtomoney. com, the podcast, the newsletter, uh, helpful articles, social, everything.

Just head over to howtomoney. com. Awesome. Thank you guys so much for coming on. This was absolutely amazing. Yeah, this was great. Thanks for having us, Andrew.