Transcript:
So my mom came to me and she said, Justin, you can either let this break you or you can let it make you. And I read it and my mind exploded. And I was like, oh my God. If I had understood these concepts back in my twenties, I would already be a millionaire multimillionaire and financially free. So in 2017, I was $80,000 in debt and six years behind on my taxes.
The truth is my money was a total dumpster fire, but I'm in a different season of life, and so over the last couple months I've really worked on uninstalling, this maximized net worth at all costs to maximizing my net life.
So Justin, welcome to the Personal Finance Podcast. Good to be here, brother. I am really excited to have you here. You and I got to spend a ton of time at, uh, FinCon. I guess that was a month and a half ago now. Um, and you have a really cool story and there is some stuff that I think our audience is absolutely gonna love.
We have an audience of. Folks who are all trying to achieve financial independence, they're so interested in retiring early. And you did something I think is absolutely amazing. And what you kind of told me at FinCon, we were at dinner and you know, doing some other stuff, is that you have this obsessive personality and that what you put your mind to something, you typically go all out on it.
So can you kind of tell me your story, you know, how you discovered financial independence and how you got started? Yeah, so before I jump into that, I will just share the fact that I believe having a. Obsessive or addictive personality is a double-edged sword. So on one hand, if it's channeled towards the right thing, it's like your superpower.
But if it's channeled. At the wrong thing, it's your kryptonite. Um, and you know, we don't have to get into this. In the past that addictive behavior was channeled towards drugs and alcohol. Now, fortunately, I'm 11 plus years sober from drugs and alcohol, and I've really learned to channel my obsessive addictive personality towards the right things.
But I do have to be careful. That I don't like accidentally start channeling it towards the wrong thing. So, to jump into my actual story of financial independence, really my, what I like to refer to as my PHI awakening, um, it all started in 2017. So in 2017 I was $80,000 in debt and six years behind on my taxes.
And the truth is my money was a total dumpster fire. And fortunately my wife, she was like, maybe you should work with a tax accountant to start cleaning up your taxes. And I was like, yeah, that'd be a good idea. So I started working with a, um, an accountant. And I've always been a big fan of Tim Ferris. Um, and the four Hour Work Week, the podcast.
And around that time it was like, I think July of 2017, uh, Mr. Money Mustache was on the Tim Ferris podcast. Um, and I had never heard someone speak about money and financial freedom in the way that this. Guy, Mr. Money Mustache spoke about it and I didn't do anything in the moment. I just kind of like parked it in the back of my mind.
This Mr. Money mustache guy. And then a few months later as I'm like cleaning up my taxes, I'm like, man, I could really use some inspiration 'cause this is a slog to like, you know, go up, like go and clean up my taxes. 'cause I like six years behind. It. Took a lot of work between me and my accountant to get it cleaned up and I was like, I'm gonna look up this Mr.
Money mustache guy just for some inspiration. And I Googled him and of course. The shockingly simple math behind Early retirement article came up, which is an article he wrote, and I read it and my mind exploded. And I was like, oh my God. If I had understood these concepts, you know, back in my twenties, I would already be a millionaire multimillionaire and financially free.
Because like the way he spoke and the way he laid it out, I was just like, this makes so much sense. I just didn't know what I didn't know. And so that really was the beginning of my fire awakening prior to, uh, you know, all of this, uh, discovering Mr. Money mustache and everything. I worked in the nightclub business in Hollywood for seven or eight years.
So I got caught up in looking Rich, so I drove a fancy Range Rover. I lived in a really fancy condo. I ate out at the nicest, uh, restaurants every single day. I went shopping for new clothes all the time, and even though I was making good money, you know, probably 150 K to 300 K per year back in this is like 2007 to, you know, 2013 ish, um, which, you know, with inflation.
Even more now, but I was spending like 110 to 120% of my money and going into more and more debt every year. So, um, that once I read that article, like I just, like that obsessive personality, like kicked in and I was like, I'm gonna get to financial independence as fast as possible. So I literally binge read the entire Mr.
Money mustache. Uh. Like blog, like every single article. And part of my morning routine is I'd wake up and I'd read one to two articles every single morning. And then also I discovered Choose Fi, uh, podcast. And they had just started a few months before because really my five journey kicked off at the end of 2017.
Um, the seed was planted with that first Mr. Money mustache. Interview on Tim Ferriss podcast in the middle of 2017, and then really at the end of 2017 and the beginning of 2018, I just went full force, like total obsessive like crazy person. Like to the fact that like, and we'll talk about it, like the stuff, not only did I radically reduce my spending, I also radically grew my income and.
You know, the amount that I was saving per month and investing per month was just like bonkers to most people. What was your motivation for being so aggressive? So you were looking at this in a way where you had this debt in place and you were six years behind on taxes. That's like big enough motivation for a lot of folks out there.
Did you have other motivations on, you know, you, you had this fire lit inside from Mr. Money mustache and for those who have been long time listeners know I absolutely. Love Mr. Money mustache. That's what kind of got me started too. And I always make this joke where it was actually true. Like I told my wife, I'm gonna go bike to work and I would, the only way to get to my job was to like bike down the interstate and she was like, you're not gonna go bike down the interstate on, you know, eight lanes of traffic to even be able to go get there.
But he really did like change my life in terms of how I even looked at money. And I became very frugal. It kind of changed the way I looked at financial independence and it helped me truly kind of change a lot of different things. Or I wish he produced more content. Obviously he's kind of just tapered it down 'cause he is living the lifestyle he's preached for so long.
But I think it's just overall such a powerful message for anybody who hasn't read his blog. Uh, he still writes one to two to three articles per year, but it is really a powerful place to start. But did you have any major other motivations outside of, you know, being in debt or realizing, oh shoot, I am backed on taxes.
I have this debt, it is crippling to my financial independence. Was there something else that really fueled you or was it to just get outta that situation? Yeah. So I would say it's a multifaceted answer. Uh, number one is I'm a firm believer that it's like never too late, like in almost anything within reason, of course, right?
A hundred percent. Um, and, uh. It's also okay to totally fail and like, try again. So part of my kind of origin story, uh, goes back to, uh, high school and college and, you know, I basically wanted to go to Stanford University and knew this from. Third or fourth grade. And so I ran everything I did from like fourth grade to 12th grade through this one filter.
Will this help me get into Stanford or will it hinder me from getting into Stanford? And again, this is the obsessive behavior, right? Um, so basically, uh, my senior year I got, uh, I applied to Stanford and I got waitlisted and I didn't get in. They, I was like number 16 on the wait list and then they only accepted like eight people off the wait list.
And I was crushed, like absolutely, like this was a, the longest, biggest goal I'd ever had. And um, you know, it kind of was my first, uh, encounter with massive failure or like significant failure. And I was kind of, you know, honestly depressed. And I was moping around for a few weeks and my mom came to me and she said, Justin.
You can either let this break you. Or you can let it make you. And I was like, that, that, like even saying it now, I get goosebumps. It hit me like a lightning bolt and I was like, I'm gonna make this, make me. And so I decided to take a gap year. I redid all my essays. I, uh, retook all my SAT exams, got all new recommendations, and I applied early decision and.
Stanford actually called me and they don't do this. They normally send you a, a letter and they called me and I answered, and they're like, hi, this is Stanford admissions. Um, we just wanna let you know this is one of the best applications we got this year. Welcome to Stanford. And I was like, jumping, hooting, hollering, crying.
'cause like I poured my heart into this application. Literally, I. Listen to Bittersweet Symphony on repeat while I was writing my essays and like crying. 'cause I was putting so much like energy and effort into this and like telling some really deep personal stories. And that just taught me that like even if you fail, like if you get up and try again, you can Like, it's amazing what you can do.
And so, you know, even though I was. Six years behind on my taxes and 80 grand in debt. I was like, I now understand the path forward so it's not too late. So I'm just gonna go buck wild and I'm gonna go after this financial independence, you know, with as my top top number one goal. I decided, and this is kind of a key thing, I wanna share with your audience that I was gonna have as much fun as possible and feel as free as possible while I was pursuing financial independence.
And the reason I share that is 'cause I think a lot of people who pursue financial independence, they kind of like frugal themselves into a corner and they kind of like, it's just like, oh, I'm just gonna grind it out for like 10, 15 years. And I was like. I was like, no way. I'm gonna make this like a huge game for myself.
Um, and I wasn't trying to like leave my job. I actually loved my job. And what's funny is I actually fell more in love with my job as my financial freedom grew. Like, as I, you know, went from negative 80 k to that like first a hundred K invested to, you know, half a million to a million. I was like, oh my God, the, this job is like.
A fire hose for my financial journey. And it's amazing. It's such a golden goose. And so I actually fell more in love with my work and you know, I don't always share this, but now that I've been out of the workforce, uh, or the nine to five since March of 2024, like the truth is, like I work three to four hours a day, four days a week, 90% of the year.
And I was making, you know, half a million or more a year. So it's like. Mindset really is everything. And I try, whether it's fitness or finances, I know we're gonna talk about my fitness journey a little bit too, but like, like you can either have the most beautiful adventure ever, or it can be the worst hellish grind ever.
And it's all the mindset that you choose to have. And that's such a powerful story just from you learning that lesson early on, that you know, you can make a huge impact and a huge difference on your life by just truly locking in and working hard and making it the most, you know, most important priority in your life.
And I think that's just such a powerful lesson for most people out there. Most people just don't work hard enough. And so really, yeah, once you learn to do that, and once you learn to actually make a huge impact and you know, put things you know in order in your life, it can really change most things. So early on in your journey, you've decided, okay.
I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make a, I'm gonna change my life, I'm gonna change my finances. I want to achieve financial independence. And you locked in. What are some of the most important things that you did early on in order to achieve financial independence? Are there like tactical things that you went out and did, or what were the first things you did?
Yeah, so I focused on the big three expenses first and foremost. So I don't care. Like who you are. Almost everyone, unless you've been doing this for a long, a long while, but anyone who's new to the financial independence journey, you have massive amounts of financial fat to cut. Yep. Right? And the big three are housing, transportation slash car and food.
And if you can optimize those three, like reduce them and get those in line, then. The amount of money that you can save and invest is quite large. Now, if you don't optimize those three. It doesn't matter how many coffees at the coffee shop you skip or how many subscriptions you cancel if your housing is so expensive that you have nothing left over to save and invest like you're stuck.
Right. And this is the middle class trap. Like this is like people get, they buy too much house. Their real estate agent or whoever convinces them like, oh, you qualify for this, like this, like really huge mortgage so you can get an even nicer house. And then you're stuck because you have to service that mortgage, which means like that's eating up all your potential money to like save and invest.
And then the other thing, people get caught up and I was guilty of all these, so I'm not pointing fingers like I'm literally, I am the lesson of like, I learned the hard way 'cause I did it wrong the first time. Around. So I lived in a crazy expensive condo like beautiful view overlooking the Roosevelt Hotel pool in Hollywood, like on Hollywood Boulevard and everything.
And I drove the Fancy Range Rover and you know, I ate out at super nice restaurants every day. And so once I discovered Phi, I literally. Uh, you know, I had gone back, and this is a probably for another podcast, but anyways, I was back at Stanford, finishing a degree. I left unfinished. Um, and I, you know, I had moved outta the fancy condo and I was renting a room.
In a house in Menlo Park, which was like two miles from Stanford campus. And, uh, I ended up, uh, you know, through, uh, some events taking up over ownership of the, the lease on that rental property. Um, meaning like I, I took over the rent for the whole house and my, the girlfriend, now wife moved in with me and the rent was crazy low.
Compared to the rest of the neighborhood. 'cause it was a crappy house. And so my rent was locked in, um, low and. At this time I discovered fi I was starting to make a lot more money, way more money than I ever had before. So instead of upgrading to a nicer house that I could afford, I stayed in the crappy rental for nine years Now I now live in a very nice house, but I still rent and we can talk about that if you want.
Um, I sold my Range Rover. I got a 2012 Prius that I still drive to this day, even though I have a $3.4 million net worth. And this is kind of the, one of the funny parts is I literally stopped eating out at restaurants. Unless someone else was paying for almost three years, I literally did not pay for a single meal out for three years because I was, I was like, I don't wanna eat my money.
I wanna invest my money. And so, but, and I didn't. The, the thing I always tell people is I didn't make my wife stop eating out. I was like, listen, you can continue to eat out with your friends. I don't care, but like when it comes to you and me, like we're gonna do picnics and like, you know, make food at home and like go, you know, go out or make a nice dinner at home, but like, I wanna save and invest all my money 'cause that's my highest excitement and eating out.
I did. Seven, eight years of that in Hollywood. I'm over it. It's not, it's, it's great, but it's like not as great as being financially free. So I optimized those three and then at the same time, I got super aggressive about growing my income. So around this time of discovering phi. I was probably making somewhere between like a hundred and 150 K.
And then I started working with, I got some, uh, like career slash sales coaches and within, and I was in B2B business business sales in the SF Bay area. And they basically were like, Justin, you can make 500 to a million a year in your career in this job. And I was like, I can. And they're like, yeah. We're doing it, you can do it.
You have the skillset, you have the charisma, you have the energy, you ha you, you have the ability. And within one year of work working with them, I went from like a hundred, 150 to. Over $400,000. Year two, I did over $700,000 and year three, I did $888,000 in personal income in a single year. And this is when I was like living in the crappy rental, driving the 2012 Prius and not eating out at the at any restaurants.
So I was literally saving and investing 80 to 90% of my revenue or my income. During that period, and that's how I went from negative $80,000 in debt to becoming a millionaire in a little over two years. This is the, this is the most incredible part. 'cause I want to kind of, I want people to realize what you did here.
Okay. Because what you did is so uncommon for most folks to be able to even get to millionaire status by being. He, he was in basically having a negative net worth and then coming back and, and becoming a millionaire. And let's think about this for a second. First, what you do, you focused on the big expenses that actually matter.
We call those million dollar expenses because the opportunity cost of those expenses, if you can actually optimize them like you're saying. Is a multimillion dollar, uh, difference because if you invest the difference, it's gonna be absolutely massive. And so you look to housing, food, transportation, those are the big three that if you can, if you can control those three, you can live a pretty lavish life just by controlling and optimizing those three.
Then you focus on growing your income, and I think your income is the single most important factor to building wealth over time. If you look at anybody. Who has a super high net worth, and you look at the data on those folks, they have a high income. Now, there's a lot of people with a high income who live paycheck to paycheck.
We've talked to a number of them on this show, for example. But if you can control, you know, your expenses and you have a high income, you can make massive, massive progress. But there's one other thing I want people to note of what you did. Is you hired coaches and you hired coaches to help you with what you saw was one of the most important factor overall.
So you're living a frugal life in all these other areas. But you hired a coach and a lot of people would say, well, that's counterintuitive. He doesn't like spending money in his own life. Why would he spend money on coaches? Because you realize that hiring those coaches is gonna help you accelerate your path to wealth and accelerate your path to financial independence.
And I think most. People miss out on this. They miss out on realizing that you should spend money in areas that you truly value and if you can value some of those things, I think it's really shows the difference in the progress that you actually made. And I think that for most people out there, they just need to realize you can be frugal.
You can live this life, but if you in a way that you know, you actually see fit, but if you spend your dollars on things that you actually value, it can absolutely change your life and turn your entire life around. So I think that is such a cool part of your story, is that you were willing to spend that money to have those coaches in place and they showed you, hey, you can accelerate your income and look at the impact from you just spending those dollars, uh, of going from $150,000 a year to making over half a million dollars per year.
Just imagine just the difference you can make if you're used to living to a. You're used to living on 150,000 and all the rest of that money that you're making, you could put towards investments. I mean, the impact of that alone long term over the course of 30, 40, 50 years is just such a huge number. And so you basically laid this foundation to absolutely change your life.
Uh, and I absolutely love that. So when you came up with this idea and you started to kind of invest this money, how did you figure out what your enough number was? Because that's one thing I think for a lot of folks out there. You know, they're, they're trying to figure out, you know, the goalpost keeps moving.
My goalpost moves all the time, and so they're trying to think through, you know, what do I do next? How do you figure out what your enough number is and how'd you arrive there? Yeah, so my original PHI number, financial independence number. Was 1.5 million because after cutting all those expenses, you know, getting my rent, uh, you know, cost of housing locked in my car, uh, groceries, et cetera, I was spending about 60 grand.
You know, and so I was like, okay, if I can get to 1.5 million based on the 4% rule thumb, like, you know, 25 times 60 grand is 1.5 million if I'm doing the math right? And so I. That wa that became my kind of like north star, right? And of course when I got to 1.5, I moved the goalpost, so then it became two.
And then when I got to two it was like, it's, let's make it three. Yeah. And. You know, I still struggle with this because of course I'd rather have more money than less money, but I'm at this pivotal point in my life where I'm learning that I'm no longer in the season. Of maximizing my net worth, and instead I'm in the season of maximizing my net life.
And this is literally just unfolded over the last few months because when I stepped away from the nine to five in March of 2024, so it's November of 2025 right now, so it's been about a year and a half. I struggled with my like, okay, if I'm not making. 400 to $600,000 a year. Like, who am I? And it, it was tough.
Like, I'll be honest, and, and you know, so when I left the nine to five, my, my immediate thing I did was like, how do I make half a million dollars a year with my online business? And like, I just like, it was like this old operating system that like served me so well, was like still trying to run, but I, I'm in a different season of life and so.
Over the last couple months I've really worked on uninstalling. This like maximized net worth at all costs to maximizing my net. Life is my number one top priority program that's running and I still, and. Will like catch myself being like chasing net worth again, like for example, black Friday's coming up at the end of this month and I was in deep in this whole planning session of like, okay, I'm gonna have my biggest, you know, uh, month of.
The last four years, 'cause I started online business, uh, you know, this November will be four years ago. So last three Black Fridays, I've had the biggest months of my like, online business. And I was like deep in the planning, okay, this is gonna be the biggest one yet. And then I was like, wait a minute, what am I doing?
Like. The last three Thanksgivings, I've been like half present because I'm so focused on like maximizing Black Friday that like I really wasn't that great of a husband Great. That great of a family member. So I was like, no, this year I'm just gonna do something super small for Black Friday that's all automated, so I don't even have to pay attention to it.
And I literally stopped myself from running the maximized net worth program for. Black Friday of this year's. And instead, I'm focused on maximizing my net life for Black Friday of this year and doing it different than I did the previous three years. So right now, like I have more than enough to live a life that I absolutely love.
Yeah. Do I wanna hire net worth? Yes. But at the cost of the quality of my life, no. Exactly. And I think it's. You have, you, you know, you have your number that you have in place, which is your enough number, and it's really hard for all of us, especially high achievers, like how you are to, to get that goalpost to stop moving.
But if we realize that we kinda slow down and settle down and be able to realize, hey, this is, we got one life to live here, and we gotta make sure that we are enjoying some of these moments and these really impactful times in life, I think that makes a big, big difference for most, most people out there.
Now if you know, you talked about, you know, a percentage of your income that you were saving. You had a really high percentage of your income, how powerful was that savings rate? Because you talked about, you know, the, um, the simple math behind early retirement. That article is one I think every single person listening should read.
Uh, 'cause it talks about your savings rate and how impactful that can actually be. How impactful was your savings rate for you? And it sounded like at your peak you were, you know, saving 90% of your income. So what did that look like for you and how did you kind of plan that out? Yeah, so the biggest takeaway from that article, the shockingly simple.
Simple math behind early retirement is the savings rate as a percentage matched against working years until all work becomes optional. So at a 50% savings rate, you have about 17 years of work starting at a net worth of zero, and at a 65% savings rate, you have about 10 years of. Paid work before all work becomes optional.
AKA, you can retire early and then at a 80% savings rate, it drops down to five and a half years. At 85% it's four years, and at 90% it's under three years. So my goal was let's get my savings rate to 80 to 90% so I can do this in. Like three to five years now, when I first discovered fi, I thought it would be a 12 to 15 year journey, but then when I started working the tenets of fi, you know, dialing in the big three expenses, optimizing my savings rate, growing my income, saving and investing every single month, I would, I quickly realized like, wait a minute, I can get there way faster than 10 to 12 years because I am in.
What I consider to be a cheat code to financial independence. I'm in a performance based compensation job, AKA, I get commissions. So if I can earn like a freaking beast, I can get to PHI in like three to five years, right? And so, yep. That's why to me, your savings rate is the golden metric to track. 'cause I don't care if you make 50 grand a year or 500 grand a year, if your savings rate is 20% and you make $500,000 a year, guess what that means?
37 years of work from a net worth of zero. Even if you make $500,000, 37 years of work, and if you're like most Americans who only save 5%, that means 66 years of work. Even if you make a million dollars a year, if you only save 5% of that. And that's, to me, like that means, that's like levels the playing field, right?
So if you make 50 KA year, if you can live off of. 20 5K. Like, dude, you have less than two decades of work before your work. Optional and can retire early. It doesn't matter. Right? And I think that's what I want people to understand is like, it doesn't matter what you make. As much as it matters how much of what you make you keep and and invest each month.
E. Exactly. It's learning how to kind of keep as much as you possibly can and put it into those assets that are gonna to grow over time. And speaking of those assets, what did you invest in? How did you kind of think about investing? How did you learn about investing and then did you invest in things like retirement accounts or other accounts?
Yeah, so I am. Like a big fan of JL Collins and Simple Path to Wealth. Um, so I predominantly invested in a total US stock market. Um, for a time I had, you know, a percentage in, uh, international and then, you know, I got rid of that because up until this year it was totally underperforming. Um, I may add some of it back now just to kind of diversify myself, but yeah, pretty much.
Almost a hundred percent equities, uh, total US stock market, like V-T-E-S-A-X-V-T-I. And then inside my, uh, 401k, um, it would be like an s and p 500 index because my 401k provider did not have a, uh, total US stock market, but they did have a s and p 500, um, which. Tomato tomato, like s and p 500 in total US stock market.
Like it's pretty much the same. So like, don't stress, like if your 401k provider doesn't have an S uh, a total US stock market, s and p 500 is fine. Um, and, uh. Because I started so late and I earned such a high income, I, I crunched the math on this before. The show is only 10% of my net worth is in retirement accounts.
The rest is in taxable brokerage. And I think that's what a lot of a big question a lot of people have is typically, you know, if they save over time and they wanna retire early, we just did an episode on this, like, how do you can access those funds in your retirement accounts early, but if they save over that timeframe.
You know, they have to have flexibility. And so I think, you know, being in the taxable, especially as early as you retired, is kind of the way to go because that's the way you can at least have that flexibility and access those funds. And there's still actual tax benefits that most people don't realize when you keep it in that taxable account because, you know, especially at the speed that you did it at, there's no way for you to kind of be able to retire early, just can, trying to jam, you know, 50 grand into a, a 401k and then the rest going into a Roth.
You just wouldn't be able to do it. Yeah. And so, um, that's why I think the taxable is so powerful for people who wanna retire early, especially if you wanna retire. Are really early because even accessing those retirement accounts early, there are some specific things that you have to do, but a lot of the rules come into play as you get closer to your fifties, uh, where you can, you know, use the rule of 55 or some of these other things.
And so I think that's really, really important for most people kind of working through this. Um, is, hey, that's the, that's the account that's flexible. You hear so many people talking about retirement accounts, but really that is the, the one that is the most flexible now. Here's one. I know a lot of people are gonna ask, and I want to kind of go through this with you too, is you did this, you know, when you had someone in your life a significant other, how did you get your wife on board?
Uh, when you start to think about financial independence, let me tell you what not to do. That's the first thing I always start with too. Yeah. Is of course. You know, you and I talked about this, uh, at FinCon, but you know, I, I, I started trying to send Mr. Money mustache articles to my wife, and this, this totally did not work because my wife one is not interested in face punches and like Mr.
Money mustache is a total like personality. Right? Right. Like to me he's like the Ron Burgundy of like personal finance, you know, from. Anchorman and he's like, ridiculous. And he's so funny to the like, right type of person and I'm the right type of person. So like his humor and, you know, uh, the way he spoke really worked for me, but it was, it did not work for my wife.
Um, and so. It was definitely kind of like in the beginning, you know, trying to send in her Mr. Money mustache articles, trying to get her to like be as frugal as me. And then I realized like, wait a minute, like what am I doing? Like as long as my wife is supportive of my goal of financial independence, I don't need her to be as wild and frugal in.
Crazy as me. I just need her to support my dream of financial independence. And so I was able to get to a point where I was like, babe, like this is my number one goal is to get to financial independence so that all work is optional for us. And I don't need you to be like me. I just want you to support my dream of financial independence, however works best for you.
She was totally on board with that because she, she knows that like, growing up, like I grew up in like pretty much poor, my parents went bankrupt. I was on the free lunch program at, at school. Like we were so broke and like, you know, I still have memories of being stressed out about asking my parents for new soccer shoes.
'cause money was so tight. And you know, in my opinion, my parents separated because of money. Um, and so like. Financial independence for me was like something I, I, I needed to do in my life journey, and she totally supported that. And then the thing that really changed everything for us as a couple and our finances honestly, was going to Camp Phi in Joshua Tree in 2018.
And the reason that was powerful for us as a a couple, and here's what I did, I said. Hey babe, my wife's name is Carly. Um, sh I said, I will pay for your ticket to Campfire if you will go with me. And she said, okay, cool, and we'll make like a trip out of it. So there she was able to meet other women who were into financial independence and see other couples and what I think was the most powerful for her.
I think this would be accurate in her own view. Is she, Paula Pant of afford anything, gave a talk there where she kind of pushed back on the. Ultra frugality and frugal yourself into a corner. And it was like, why don't you just make more money? And that really resonated with my wife for whatever reason.
Right? Because my wife likes, she's not a crazy spender, but she likes to go out to a nice meal. You know, she's very like smart in how she shops and spends and, you know, whatever. She's not buying like. You know, $5,000 pairs of shoes or $20,000 purses. That's not who she is, but she's just like, I don't wanna be like a crazy frugal weirdo like my husband.
I wanna like live a life that is enjoyable to me and I'll just make more money. And so when she heard Paula Pants speak, it was like, okay, there's a way for me to do this too, that works for my personality, my lifestyle that I wanna live, et cetera. And so I always encourage people, like if you have a partner who's not on board with phi, like take 'em to Camp Phi.
Camp Phi is like 40, it's like a money camp for money nerds. It's like 40 to 60 people. It's like over, you know, three nights and you'll just meet a bunch of people, couples that are doing the financial independence journey, and it will give your partner like the opportunity to converse with someone other than you about financial.
Independence. So instead of you like trying to get them on board, they'll hear other people who they can relate to and then be like, wait a minute, there is a version of this that works for me. That, I think is a really powerful way to look at that because, uh, I did the same thing overall. I tried to get my wife into it and she was not the way that I did it was I basically would look at our spending and say, Hey, you know, we're spending too much in all these different areas, and just started to create stress inside the household.
And instead I realized pretty quickly, no, I wanna reverse this and kind of flip this over and look at this in a way where. How can we make this work for how we already currently live our lifestyle? And so it's increasing your income, number one, but also looking at it from a lens of what is your dream life?
How do you actually wanna live your life? And looking at keeping the end in mind when you start to have these conversations and that changed everything. We wanna travel more, we wanna spend more time with our kids, we wanna do all these different things. And so once you look at it from, you know, the keeping the end in mind, I think that's really, really powerful.
And what I love, what you did was that you went to campfire and you could see, hey, this is just a bunch of. Regular people just like us where it's not like a bunch of really weird, you know, weirdos. It's not a cult. Uh, it's just a different thing where a lot of people are just living their lives differently from what society kind of tells us and they're able, able to achieve financial dependence because of that.
And I love that, that way to think through this. So. Here's one thing I love about you, and for those of you who are watching on YouTube or Spotify, um, you know, this is something where if, when you see Justin, Justin is a really fit guy, and what Justin does is he kind of integrates financial independence with fitness.
And I think there's a lot of correlations between the two of these areas. And for me, fitness has been a big focus over the course of the, the last couple of years where I'm, you know, working out. Twice a day for, for six days a week. Pretty much taking, you know, one rest day per week. I changed the entire way that I have been eating.
It is a huge, huge thing for me. And I think there's just a lot of correlations between that I see. Between finance and fitness. But what do you see, uh, with the correlations between finance or financial independence and fitness and kind of talk about your fitness drawing a little bit. Yeah, so MyFitness journey was the preface to my financial independence journey.
Um. What I mean by that is I was, what I like to call, kind of fit, kind of fat most of my life. So I was never like obese or overweight, but I always had enough kind of like pudge that I never had a six pack and I wanted a six pack, like my whole life. Like I literally worked at it for like 15 plus years.
Uh, you know, I, I remember like, you know, even in high school, like I would. I go like run in the morning before I caught the bus to school. Uh, you know, I get those as seen on tv, uh, AB machines, off the tv, trying to get abs and, and you know, I basically, you know, I tried every diet, I tried every workout program, I tried every supplement, and I thought like, oh, it must be my genes.
Like, you know, I just can't. You know, I can be, you know, fit, but like never excited to take my shirt off at the pool or the beach. Um. Then as a last disc ditch effort, I decided to work with an online fitness coach. And in six months working with this fitness coach, I lost 30 pounds of body fat and I went from 18% body fat down to 8% body fat.
And I was ripped and I had abs and I to the point where I was like posting shirtless photos on Instagram. 'cause I finally had what I wanted and I was just like, what? What the heck? Like why did I wait so long to work with a coach? If I had known it would've been this fast? 'cause I dead serious 15 years trying to figure out myself, and then in six months, got my dream body.
Working with a coach and it's, that's the whole thing, you know, we kind of opened, uh, or talked about this earlier, is like, you just don't know what you don't know. And a good coach is gonna teach you those things and it, you might be able to figure those things out, but it's gonna take you 10 to a hundred times longer.
Right. In 15 years I didn't figure it out, but then I worked with a coach and in six months, like a coach will collapse time for you. Right, and it's so worth the investment. So once I got fit, the key things my coach taught me was tracking my macros, tracking my body fat percentage, and following a well structured workout program and tracking every set and every rep.
So. To me, the crossover between fitness and finances is the whole tracking aspect. So what gets measured gets optimized, right? So just like I optimized my savings rate, what I realized is the key to getting the body that I wanted was a certain body fat percentage, right? Because you can be super muscular, have tons of muscles, but if you have a layer of fat covering it.
You can't see the muscles. Right? Right. And this is most people, I think, 'cause there's a lot of people that work out, you know, three to six times a week and they have decent musculature, but they have a layer of fat covering it so they don't look jacked or ripped. Right. And when you start tracking your body fat percentage, then.
You know, for most men you have to be around 10% to see abs. Now some men, they keep more of their body fat in their like butt and lower in their legs. So they could be 12% and have a six pack. Other men keep more of their fat in their stomach, so they would have to be like eight or 9% to see like really chiseled abs.
Um, so me, I pretty much have to be around like. Eight to 10% to see my abs. I wish I was one of those people who could see 'em at 12%. Um, but I'm not. Um, so that piece, and the other piece is everyone thinks they eat healthy. This is just like everyone thinks they don't spend too much money and they've dones, they've done scientific studies on this.
People spend. About 50% more than they think they do. And people eat 50% more calories than they think they do. So my coach had me track my food and prior to working with him, I literally would eat chicken and broccoli six days a week. I'm no joke. And then I'd have, uh, on Sunday, I'd have my cheat day and I would go.
Bananas. I would eat pizza, burgers, drink beer, uh, freaking eat a whole thing of nut butter. I'm not even joking, like a whole thing of nut butter. And I would. And then when I started tracking, 'cause my coach had me in the first two weeks, he's like, I just want you to track everything. I don't need you to hit any calorie numbers or hit any macros.
Just track it. And what we found out is on my cheat day, I ate 5,000 to 10,000 calories. So. 5,000 to 10,000 calories. It doesn't matter what I do the other six days a week, I'm completely destroying everything. I did the previous six days on that one day. And so the key to reducing body fat is being in a calorie deficit and the.
Problem is, and most of you, uh, uh, listening to this, you'll notice that like most people around you every year are getting a, including yourself, are getting a little bit fatter each year. And this is because you might not be eating way over your calorie, uh, you know, calories, but you're eating in a surplus.
Therefore, that surplus is stored as spotty fat. So. As long as you're eating in a surplus, you are going to keep putting on weight. Now, depending on how big that surplus is, depe, uh, like determines how fast you're putting on that weight, right? So. Um, once I started tracking my macros and my coach would set, you know, calorie targets and macro targets, for me it was just like a mathematical equation.
I was like, cool. Like this is just math. If I eat in a deficit of three to 500 calories per week, I'm gonna lose about one to three pounds of body fat per week. And then you scale that over six months. Right. It's like, holy shit, that's 30 pounds. Exactly. Um. That to me is like the savings rate is the inverse of the body fat percentage.
Right? So your savings rate is like how fast you are getting wealthier and your body fat percentage is like the, the, the lower it is. The more jacked you look and the higher your savings rate, the more rich you're getting at a faster speed. And then the last thing, um, I'll say about this before, you know, I let you ask me follow up questions is what I said earlier.
Mindset is everything. And when I think about mindset, it's psychology and habits. Right. So everyone knows how to get rich and get fit. Literally save more than you spend and invest and eat less calories than you burn and work out. It's so simple, right? Yet most people don't have a six pack, and most people don't ha are not millionaires.
But if you have the right habits and the right psychology becoming wealthy. Fit is actually pretty simple. Doesn't mean it's easy, but it's if you have the right habits and the right psychology, it's only a matter of time before you're fit and rich. Exactly. It's, it's simple, not easy. And I think overall for most people it's, it's shifting that mindset and figuring out consistency.
Those two things will absolutely change kind of what you're looking at when it comes to, to health and fitness. But in addition to finance, they just correlate so much and it's just so, so cool to kind of see how you, this is what I love about your content, is you integrate both together. And it's just such a powerful way to, to kind of look at life and, and the way that these are both going, you know, integrated together.
So what does your kind of fitness regimen look like now and kind of what are some of the things that you do throughout the week? Yeah, so you hit a point that I, I think is so important and it's, whether it's fitness or finances, consistency, compounds, right? So I literally tracked my macros for 10 years.
And I've been eight to 10% body fat for 10 years. Um, now the last two years I intuitively eat, I'm still eight to 10%. I don't think everyone needs to track their macros for 10 years. But like, if you've never tracked your food intake, like that's where you need to start. Just like if you're on your, the beginning of your five journey, if you've never tracked your finances, that's where you need to start.
But my fitness, uh, regimen right now, it's evolved over time. Number one is sleep and nutrition need to be dialed in. So I sleep on average seven and a half to eight and a half hours every single night, and I eat approximately about one gram of protein per pound of body weight, and I love carbs. And I do have some fat.
So carbs are not bad, fat is not bad. They're all necessary. So if you do as much physical output as I do, you need a fair amount of carbs. So I eat plenty of carbs. Um, now can you train your body to be on a low carb diet and operate? Absolutely. The body is an amazing machine that can do almost anything, but I like carbs.
IE carbs, um, I do about 15,000 steps a day. So I was telling Andrew before we hit record, I'm actually pedaling on a bike chair right now why we're doing this podcast. So you can't see of course on the show. Yeah. So I have my Garmin on my ankle tracking my steps. Now, some of you may say, oh, that doesn't really count as steps, but here's the thing.
Every super fit person I know they're neat, non. Exercise activity thermogenesis, NEAT, is just significantly higher than the average human. So that's the reason I am so much more fit than most people is 'cause consistency compounds. And I've been getting 15,000 plus steps a day for like over a decade. So.
Just, I'm just my peer group. Anyone else who's 43, like I'm just significantly more fit than most 43 year olds. Right? I also track the key metrics daily, so I stop step on a body scale every single day and I track, I've been tracking my body fat percentage literally for over a decade, and this morning I'm like.
10.3%. Um, and I float between eight and 10%. I also track like key metrics like resting heart rate, HRV VO two max and other things. Um, but that's through my whoop and I'm obsessed with this like new feature that whoop released called Whoop Age. And like I'm literally 11 over 11 years younger than my.
Chronolo chronological age. I'm 43, but biological age, I'm 32.2 years old. We can go into that. Another episode or offline. Um, I strength train four to six times a week. Um, it's a mix of traditional bodybuilding, gymnastics, rings, calisthenics, kettlebells weighted batons, mace, sled, push pull, sandbags, and functional movement.
Now I am like. For me, whether it's finances or fitness, like it's all about following the fun, right? So, 'cause the reason I say that is because fun taps into spirit, and spirit is infinite renewable energy, right? So that's why I like do all these crazy different like workouts, not 'cause I'm trying to be cool because they make me more fit than some other type of workout.
It's because it's fun for me. So for the last couple years I've gotten really into gymnastics rings and uh. Weighted batons and maces. And then more recently got into pushing heavy sleds and pulling heavy sleds and sandbags. Um, I do two to three ti uh, times a week. I do, uh, high intensity interval training, um, usually running.
Or on my Peloton, because I'm, I'm over the last two and a half months, I've taken my VO two max from 47 to 56. Incredible. And 50 56 is, it's the elite athlete, uh, level for my age group, 40 to 49. Anything above 55 is elite. Uh, like your top 5%. Now, of course, like, uh. You know, a ultra marathon person or, or like someone who does triathlons, their VO two max, if they're a professional, will be way higher than that.
But I'm in the top 5% of like humans overall for my age group. And then. You know this Andrew. I play two to five plus hours of pickleball, six to seven days a week, and then I also, uh, hike and rollerblade a few times a week. Justin just, uh, he started playing pickleball. What was it like a couple 12 April months ago?
April 12th. So, so, you know, the exact date, the, the obsessive personality kicked in right away. 'cause pickleball, everyone I know who really gets into pickleball is obsessed with it. And, uh, I think that's just so amazing. And I, this is, this is a great layout of kind of like, you know, being active and kind of staying active is, is one of the most important things.
Uh, yeah. When it comes to. Keeping that body fat percentage down. And so you gotta find it kind of what works for you. And, and really Justin's show has some, some great tips on that too, of just kind of finding some of those things that can help you when it comes to, you know, tracking all these different really important metrics.
And I think we need to do a whole separate episode on fitness. 'cause I think, uh, you and I could probably go back and forth forever on this. I got really into like Peter Attias book and all the stuff that he does for longevity. The VO two max. You and I kind of talked about that too, so maybe we need to, we need to do this for a separate episode.
'cause I love, love, love this stuff and I know our audience. Does too. We have, in our Community Master Money Academy, we do our goals every month. And in fact, we were doing our goals, uh, today for, for November, and a lot of people will put their, their money goals and then all of a sudden people just started to integrate their, their fitness goals as well.
And I loved that because that was just part of, they wanted to stay up publicly so that everybody could see it and they're talking through all this stuff and I think they just intertwine so much. And that was without us even prompting them. So I think it's just so cool. Uh, how, how much, those two things kind of.
Coincide and, and cross over. So I wanna ask you just a couple quick questions and shift here with, uh, a couple of our rapid fire questions because I had, like, we have a couple minutes left and so let's dive into to just a couple of these quick questions. So if you could tell your younger self one thing, what would it be?
With whatever you want to achieve, figure out what the golden metric to track is. Then track and optimize that golden metric. Relentlessly. So whether that's your finances or your fitness or even your marriage or your relationship, you can find a metric that will literally, if you work to improve it, it will improve the whole area of your life that you're focusing on.
And I just think like it's so, such a simple concept, but most people don't track the key metric in the key areas of their life. So they get. Very inconsistent. Results and progress. What is the best money advice you've ever received? Track your savings rate. I love it. I think that's one of the, the most important things that most people don't track.
How do you plan to level up your finances this year? Yeah, so this year is all about using my wealth to maximize my net life, but this year's really about like. Living my best fit rich life. And you know, right now that's like pretty much playing pickleball full, full time. Like, you know what I mean? If, if the work gets in the way of my pickleball, I'm like, Nope.
I love it. That's really what I'm doing with my finances this year is, is utilizing the wealth that I've built to live my best life. And I think so many people who've achieved fi, like they're still chasing the net worth thing and they need to like switch over to like, let's maximize my net life. I love it.
And then my, the last one's my favorite one, which is, what does wealth mean to you? I would say at a macro level, it's freedom. At a more nuanced level for me at this point, it's my ability to live my best fit rich life. I think that is what we all have with financial dependence and everything else. It's getting your time back so that you can do those types of things that you actually want, which I think is absolutely amazing.
Well, Justin, this has been incredible. We're gonna have to do a part two on fitness because I, I know everyone's gonna love that for sure. So let everybody know where can they find out more about you, your podcast, your website, everything else that you have going on. Yeah, so I, in preparation for this interview, I wanted to put together some leave behinds, uh, some actionable things for the audience.
So one of the things that really transformed my fitness was actually following a structured workout program. And you know, you see this a lot of times, people, they go to the gym maybe. Several times a week, but they don't, they just show up and do whatever. So like one of the things my fitness coach taught me is to follow a well-structured workout program that U utilizes progressive overload.
So I have a free. Four day workout program that anyone can get by going to fit rich life coaching.com/workout and you can download it. Um, I also such a strong believer in tracking your savings rate, um, that I have a free savings rate tracker that pairs, uh, with a free financial tracking software. Um, and you can get that at fit.
Rich Life coaching.com/tracker and Andrew will put those shows in the link. My podcast is Fit Rich Life. It's available everywhere. My main website that hosts my newsletter and my podcast is@fitrichlife.com. Um, and I am Justin, David Carl everywhere online. I'm most active on Instagram and Threads, but I'm on.
Twitter slash x and pretty much all the social medias. Um, but I love connecting with my audience. And, uh, if you're interested in leveling up your fitness, your money, and your life, I, uh, promise you all, I create lots of valuable, empowering, inspiring, and entertaining content. Awesome. Well, we'll link all those up in the show notes.
Justin, thank you so much again for being on here. This has been incredible. My pleasure, brother. Thanks for having me.
